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SFH LEADER TRIAL

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: SFH LEADER TRIAL
    Posted: January 24 2010 at 11:40pm
the WBC has approved a 2010 trial of a 3m (10 feet) leader with a  lightweight clip for rope attachment.. Please let us know what length works best for you and is there are any negatives form you or other skiers regarding a lite metal clip
We are going to make a standard length for 2011 and now is your chance to put in your .02..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 1FootDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2010 at 1:25pm
Just for tricks I presume...
I'd rather be footin' than clickin'...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2010 at 4:15pm
For all events
It is being standardized so the length of the line can be the same at all tournaments while using a leader to ease the changing of ropes..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2010 at 4:57pm

We used a 10 ft extension and metal connector at last years nationals for those wanting to use the SFH for tricks.  The problem I see with doing slalom on that leader is unless we get the manufacturers to change their rope lengths, the plate settings on the inboard are set for a skier to be closer to the boat.  Moving them back appx 10 feet, the wake will suck.  A better choice I think is to put a standard rope on the SFH attachment point to be used for wakes and to have the leader as an option for tricks for those who have their own ropes.  Granted that moves the skier forward about a foot for wakes, but the plates could be set to accommodate that much easier than trying to adjust it for 10 feet further back.  Plus 10 feet further back, the wake is wider and scores would likely go down a bit.  Just my $.02

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2010 at 7:39pm
Dan some good thoughts but there are other issues as well.. Tricks are gonna be a bitch with this until we strike upon the solution..

For LOC's that want to provide a SFH they MUST have a tournament homo'd rope and handle available for tricks, slalom and jump.. It is only required to be used in S&J but it must be available for T..

So for S&J its easy.. hook up a line at high and mid points, leave em hooked up with handles on both and go like hell.. No leader required. Just use 21.5m ropes..

For RC and RL (standings list has been changed to rankings list (RL)) tournament supplied ropes MUST be 21.5m from attachment to handle loop (or 23.0m with handle attached) .. Even for Tricks...

For this trial period we are allowing the 21.5m tournament rope to be an 18.5m rope with a 3m leader.. Not a 21.5m with 3m leader.. so they slalom skier wont be 3m farther back..

So for the trickers that use the tournament line, (the vast majority at most tournaments) a standard line attached to a leader wont do.. it will put them 10 feet farther back.. 3m out of tolerance for tournament supplied ropes..

Also, as you well know, to run tricks quickly really requires 2 tournament lines coz one is on the dock getting a handle attached while the other is pulling a skier.. So providing two 18.5m  lines is gonna just about be mandatory if using a SFH with a leader. (I'm thinking they will have to be a different color that the 21.5m ropes or have colored weaves inserted at the ends to stop confusion) OR dont use a leader and somebody is gonna/ have to climb.. Which in a single judge situation may be impossible..

The skier that provides their own line will now have to have 2 ropes (one for SFH tournaments, one for attaching to tower) or a take off/shortening loop @3m..

So by the time you have the two standard 21.5m ropes and the two 18.5m ropes it is gonna be a MOFO to keep all this straight in the boat and on the dock..

We recently tried a trick event with the 21.5m rope permanently attached to the SFH..  handle changes at the dock make this very slow... Can be done but it slows things down since the dock marshall cant access the rope to pre-rig handles..

So we want people to come up with some easy solutions to all of these issues.. The only way thats gonna happen is if a LOT of people try different things and report back to this forum with their results..

And you're absolutely right.. It is just about 1 foot closer to the boat if you use the SFH and the attachment point is plumb above the tower attachment point.. ..


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Edited by Foot - January 27 2010 at 7:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2010 at 7:42pm
DAn
Also the rope manufacturers dont have to change.. The homos already have to shorten most ropes after they stretch out.. No biggie to shorten them to 18.5m.. Unfortunately unless the rope is WAY long the left over bit wont make a 3m leader..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2010 at 10:58pm
Foot, that's certainly an option.  Some more thoughts based upon probably the biggest tournament run so far with the SFH, the 2009 US Nationals.  Multiple colored ropes is DEFINITELY a requirement.  Otherwise, you aren't sure which rope you are grabbing.  We ran one standard rope on the SFH, one on the tower, and a 10 ft leader on the SFH for those who had their own rope.  If they wanted the tournament rope on the SFH for tricks, we put their handle on the standard rope already connected up top.  We had a Velcro strap around the two sides of the tower to hook the ropes not in use out of the way.  We used a cane rapped in flotation and athletic tape as a tool to reach out and grab the rope on the SFH at the end of the lake.  A little reverse by the driver and the cane made for quick retrieval.  
 
The downside, as you point out, is not being able to utilize the dock starter to rig handles.  Based upon spending a lot of time in the boat at Nationals and getting frustrated with it, I would suggest putting a metal clip on the handle end of the rope to attach handles to.  With that, I think we could do the handles in the boat.  Plus it would be a quick change at the far end of the lake as well without the judges having to learn the old method to tie the handles on.  I don't believe that would create a safety issue, as it is 5 ft away from the skier and they make some very light clips these days.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2010 at 11:02pm

Oh, and one more issue with the method you recommend, if you shorten the ropes to be used with a 10 ft leader on the SFH, you will also have to put a leader on the tower to make things equal.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2010 at 1:00am
No Dan you misunderstand what I am saying.. still use 21.5m on tower.. 18.5m + leader on SFH

BUT.. I think I may have just had that EUREKA moment we have been searching for...

How do we eliminate the need for 2 different length ropes???  AND eliminate climbing the tower to hook up to to that he SFH???

If we used a leader on the SFH AND the tower we would NOT need 2 different lengths of rope.. All of the tournament supplied ropes for boats equipt with SFH would be 18.5m with a 3m leader attached to the tower AND one on the SFH... and we would just disconnect at the leader no matter if it was tower or SFH..

No need for clips at the handle ends.. The dock marshal could have a rope ready.. The skier would just tell us which leader to hook up to.. The LEADERS would be different colors so it was much easier to grab the right one and off we go...

This would still require the skiers to have a take off at 3m on their personal ropes in case there is no SFH at a tournament but for the LOC it would only require an additional leader and clip..

Now we just need to check that a clip on a 3m leader on the tower isnt gonna eat gel coat... I'm thinking it may have to be 2.5m with a 19m rope to make sure the rope end stays inside the boat and cant reach the transom

GUMP YOURE A G.D. GENIUS.. YOURE GONNA BE A GENERAL IN THIS ARMY..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Drock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2010 at 1:17am
Judges only deal with two attach points no matter what you get from the dock in Tricks.
 
And
 
Judges don't even have to pull in the rope to go from Tower to SFH in Slalom & Jump.
 
That is Genius
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mnfooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2010 at 8:05am
I think if you run an extension off the tower you will have an issue with the "clip" becoming a ball peen hammer bouncing off the heads of the rear judges when the boat shuts down or a skier falls.

In the Midwest we have been switching handles off the tournament ropes in the boat.  Albeit  may take a few more seconds than if we were just switching out a rope w/handle, I don't see it as a major problem having one Tournament rope attached to SFH and one rope on the Tower.  It seems to me half or more of the skiers in the Midwest use their personal rope for Tricks.  Someone can correct me on this if I am wrong.  We publish early that there will be a 10 ft leader attached to SFH and has not seemed to be a problem. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 1FootDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2010 at 11:04am

My thoughts were that for Jump and Slalom, we have two 75 foot ropes attached permanently, one on the tower and the other on the SFH. Both with identical handles. End of story because we must use the tournament supplied rope/handle for these events.

 

For tricks, we would have a 75 foot rope on the tower and a 65 foot rope with a 10 foot leader to attach to the SFH for tricks. Knowing this, footers who want to use the SFH with their own rope should adjust according to the distance behind the boat they want to trick behind. For instance, if a skier wants to trick at 65 feet behind the boat on the SFH, they would bring a 55 foot rope knowing that a 10 foot leader will be added.

I'd rather be footin' than clickin'...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2010 at 2:23pm
Foot, already thought of that.  I love my boat and would worry about the gel coat, but I love my noggin' more.  Any metal clip longer than about 4 feet is gonna whack the judgfe in the center in the head.  Not a good way to get rid of judges.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Drock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2010 at 7:27pm

Any more than one rope in the boat and you will have tourney slow down.  You have to pull them in and throw another out, as well as un-tangle them every three skiers. One rope getting switched from clip to clip would be far better for Slalom and Jump. 

 

I also think that keeping the leaders the same length for all three events as well as the Tower and SFH is essential.  One leader could pull everyone for every event and can be switched between Tower and SFH in a pinch.

 

My anwser, Shorten the leads to 5’ and include shock tubes.  Easier to grab and switch, weights the rope to the center of the boat between passes, and they would hang as opposed to flapping when not in use.

 
Getting hit with the rope was a problem they resolved 20+ years ago.  What ever happened to Shock Tubes?  They used to be required tournament equipment.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2010 at 2:56am
What about a 2m leader.. for the SFH that should bring it right down to the tower.. From the tower it shouldnt reach the gel coat.. Yea it may hit a judge but were only talking about a small clip. not a big lump..
DROCK
Shock tubes never prevented backlash. Non stretch ropes did that.. Shock tubes prevented a loop developing inside the boat that would go around the drivers head
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2010 at 2:57am
Lets all remember it is a test.. If we find 2m or 1.5m is the right length lets share that so we can all try it.. We havent standardized anything.. We are testing< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall;" id="jsProxy" ="">
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Drock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 2:03pm

We use shock tubes on boom cables to protect the hull.

I figure it could protect both the hull and someone's skull.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 3:36pm
I am thinking if we trial 2m leaders we wont have the issues.. < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall;" id="jsProxy" ="">
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 3:37pm
I am just picturing a shock tube hanging in front of the video man.. < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall;" id="jsProxy" ="">
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Drock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 4:49pm
You could clip the leader back  to the tower out of the way.
 
It's the whipping effect that I am concerned about.  The time after a skier falls is when the rope whips all over the place.  That clip becomes an unpredictable projectile. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Drock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 4:55pm
A shock tube would eliminate the spherical danger zone around the attach point on the tower.  The radius of this danger zone being the exact length of the leader.
 
We can't guarantee that someone's head will stay out of that area, we can only guarantee that the boat will stay out of it.  It's a non-issue if it's padded.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 5:05pm
sphericalor conical???
Lets test, not guess
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 5:20pm
One thing I think you guys may be overlooking is that either a clip, or a shock tube are going to weigh the rope down enough so the rope, that is attached and goes back between two judges in the back will still be whipping around (now lower) and could easily loop and wrap around a neck.  Adding weight  to the leader on the tower just puts the rope closer to the judge's head and neck. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote papaski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 5:55pm
The judges can stay on shore an watch the video as many times as they want to do their scoring.  Their head will be pefectly safe and the boat will be fast.       

Edited by papaski - February 03 2010 at 5:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote papaski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 5:55pm
The judges can stay on shore an watch the video as many times as they want to do their scoring.  Their head will be pefectly safe and the boat will be fast.       
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Drock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 5:58pm

Has anyone ever measured to see how far away someone's head is from the attach point on the tower?

I remember back in the days of the low pylon.  A judge was almost guaranteed to take a rope across the face.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Drock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 10:27pm
Off topic but,
 
papaski - 4 questions
Do you really want event judges to have slow-mo and rewind?
Who determines re-rides for pull, equal conditions, and skier feedback?
What should the tolerance be for resolution if the feed snows or pixilates?
Would videographers need an officials rating to avoid loseing a skier in frame or making the skier half an inch on the screen while playing with the zoom?
 
My .02) I believe that fair competition requires nearly identical conditions for everyone.  We have judges in the boat for more reasons than to just "watch skiing".
 
On the other hand, as a judge the AC would be nice, and as a skier I would have another official to blame and more potential protests when I mess up.
 
Also, the monkey thing is interesting. (e-mail alert but I don't see it anymore).  I know that I have wished I had a tail when climbing the tower...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote papaski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2010 at 7:48pm

The judges already have slow-mo and rewind.  As far as I know runs are not "official" where they can count as a record until after the video review.  So why are we judging it twice?

The judges will still be able to see, and hear, what the cameraman is showing them and it would be easy to send gps speed to them on shore also.  I'm pretty sure that they could see the boats course better from shore then in the boat and they can still talk to the driver so I don't see the problem.
 
The camera doesn't blink!  Human error is much more likely than camera error, especially if you use two cameras. 
 
It would still be equal because everyone would ski under these conditions. What are the other reasons that we have judges in the boat?  Most judges I have talked to complain about sitting in a cramped boat in the sun for hours at a time.  I'm not saying they should be inside somewhere away from the skiing, just onshore where they can still see the boat and skiier.  Right now there is a mandatory reride if a piece of equipment fails so I don't see the problem.
 
We are trying to get as much speed as we can by putting as much power as possible in these boats when it would be much simpler and less expensive to reduce weight in the boat.  If you live in places like Denver, you need a big block to get anywhere near 45 with a tourny load.    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2010 at 10:19pm
We used video judging at World Games.. Had a few problems we are working to overcome.. We will trial it again in Berlin..

HOWEVER Papaski.. Who ever told you that cameras dont blink was WAAAAAY wrong.. Standard video recorders blink 29.97 times per second.. That rate varies a little between PAL and NTSC.. If you watch frame by frame you will see a LOT happens while the camera is blinking. Our eyes/brain smooth out the action using something called the Phi Phenomenon..

Unlike the human eye, a camera only sees while it is "blinking" and keeps the iris shut between blinks..

Some cameras tell you they play back at 60 FPS.. That is called interlacing.. When you play those back frame by frame you see 50% of each frame is stripes of video while the stripes in between are blank or black.. The next frame fills in the stripes that were missing  from the previous frame.. So although it plays back at 60fps you STILL only get 30fps of data coz each frame only has 50% of the data.. High resolution doesnt capture any more FPS.. It just records more pixels per frame so the same amount of action still happens between blinks

Now how does all that that make a clip that weighs 1/2oz into a deadly projectile???
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Post Options Post Options   Quote I12 Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2010 at 12:42pm
Foot,
 
I have a suggestion for solving the rope problem for the trick event.  Here is how the boat set up would be:
1.  Leader on SFH with a clip (length to be determined, we used a 10' leader last year here in the Southern Region with no issues).
 
2.  Tournament supplied standard length rope on Tower and Superfly High with a clip installed on the handle end of the loop.  The boat ropes can stay attached and this would make the handle changes on the dock quick and easy.
 
Holtzy and I have been training with a rope and clip on the handle end loop for well over a year.  We have had some that failed over time but with no issues when it failed it was no worse then a rope breaking.  We have found that there are clips that hold up better and we have one now that has not failed yet and it has been in use for a couple of months.  It is Stainless Steal and the opening locks into the clip.  See picture below.  The common failure point we had found was that over time the clip would pull out and so the ones that did not lock into place would stretch to the point of breaking. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 1FootDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2010 at 3:39pm
How about smaller version of this?
 
I'd rather be footin' than clickin'...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2010 at 6:06pm
Paul
Thats all good for a local tournament.. How many skiers are you trying to service?? 25?? 40 at a Regional???

How about a tournament with 150+ skiers??

At a Worlds the boat pulls up to the dock. The judge has only pulled just the end and maybe one or two loops of the rope off the tower and hands that to the dock marshall who hands them the next rope with handle attached.. It gets put on the tower while the dock marshall is pulling in the last rope and we are off to the races.. Actually at some locations (depending on if the boat can come up to the side or end of the dock) the judges never touch the rope for the first pass.. The dock marshall steps over and does everything..

Your method requires the judge to pull in the entire rope, change handles in the boat.. throw water all over every sheet in the boat while doing this and missing the skiers instructions..
Ho wmuch longer will that take??? 15-30 seconds.. Multiply that by the numbner of skiers at the US Nats or a Worlds.. Now consider we do 3 rounds... NOW you see our issue.. By the end of the tournament your method adds 1/2+ a day to the tournament...

Not saying your method doesnt have its place..Just saying THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY.. Lets keep looking

The clip you picture is available world wide and comes in a very small size and thaty is all you need for tricks.. But put it on the end of a 2m leader, not the towrope
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2010 at 6:15pm
Dan
Where is the source for them??
Why do they need to be smaller???
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Drock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2010 at 6:28pm
Foot
 
I still like your, two leaders/one rope idea.  It's the easiest and most fool proof.

The clip is a problem.  To clarify, I said that the clip becomes an unpredictable projectile, not a deadly projectile.  Paul got smoked by a clip last summer and lived to tell the tale.  Test confirmed...He said it hurt like hell.

Even a neoprene sleeve over the clip would help a great deal.
 
Drock
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2010 at 5:20pm

Derek,  Let em repeat again, the fact you add a leader or a sleeve, or a shock tube will weigh the rope down and if someone falls, the rope will be bouncing around the head of the judge in the center.  All it would take is for the handle to catch, the rope to pop some slack and a loop to go around the judges neck to cause a terrible accident. I don't believe a leader on the mid attachment point (the tower) is the issue.

Foot, We ran nationals (130 skiers) with two standard ropes attached and a leader on the SFH  for those with their own ropes.  A judge pulled the rope in and changed the handle.  We finished EARLY every day.  Not the greatest, but it can be done. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 1FootDan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2010 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Foot

Dan
Where is the source for them??
Why do they need to be smaller???
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Hicking supply store.... there are about 6 x 4 inches I would say.
I'd rather be footin' than clickin'...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2010 at 6:10pm
Heres what we recently found
Full length ropes with take off loops used with clips are not good.. They are hard on the rope.. Hard to get on and off..

2m leader with clip is not an issue on either the tower or SFH.. It is only used in tricks.. Slalom and tricks the 19.5m rope is threaded through the 2m leader making it one 21.5 rope and one stays attached to tower, one on SFH.. Anyone wanting low pole gets the one from the tower moved down..

Clips were not deadly weapons.. We even tried them in jump and no issues EXCEPT it broke the rope.. Never came close to judge, timer, video, driver....
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